Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post (Gezocht)

door 2blue, 23.11.2009, 23:23 (5519 dagen geleden)

Hi everybody

Unfortunately I don't speak Dutch, and I hope you don't mind reading this post in English. I live in Norway and are new to old radios and record players. Where I live there are very little help to find when trying to repair old sound systems, and people in this forum looks very knowledgeable.

I have bought an old Philips radio from the late 1950's. It is in a fairly large wooden cabinet, the type people had in their living room, with jacaranda veneer, and a record player at the bottom. I have had the radio checked and repaired, new valves are put in, it works and sounds all right.

I contacted Philips in Norway and they told me it was built in Norway with Philips parts, and dates from before 1960, probably not later. I have spent hours browsing the web, but not found any thing that dates it more precisely. The record player looks exactly like this one I found on youtube, but I cannot find any model number on it. Every thing looks identical except for colours. From what I read on the web, it looks like Philips produced a record changer with this type of tone arm and and mechanism from the late 1940 to the late 1950's. A year or two before 1960 the tone arm was given a different shape, more slender and the record changing mechanism changed too. However Philips had several models in this decade, with lots of variations that complicates things.

Can you see the two round knobs / buttons on the front right corner on the video? These are still there in my record player, but connection to the rest of the turntable mechanism are missing. I think they have something to do with the tonearm's adjustment to different record sizes. These parts I would very much like to replace.

The tonearm has a one piece cartridge / pickup that sort of plugs on (tonearm = male, cartridge = female). I am afraid this pickup needs a replacement entirely, not just the stylus.

There are three wires that goes through the tonearm and I suspect one of them is grounding. Two red wires go to some point under the turntable and the third wire (copper) twirls around them.

The record player connects to the radio with two banana plugs. There is a sort of woven "metal stocking" encapsulating the two connection wires and the metal stocking is soldered to one of them. I have tried to figure out how this works, but honestly I really don't. I could not find the 1950's type banana plugs, but I found some gold plated new ones that fits. The plastic insulation on the wires are crumbling and they need to be replaced. I think the tonearm needs to be rewired too. Do you think I can use silver plated copper thread for the tone arm? This is the most easily available and used for current tonearms. I am slightly worried about how the grounding wire works, I will never be able to replace the twirling copper wire the same way it was originally made.

To sum it up:

1. Is it possible to find a new working cartridge that fits the tonearm?
2. Missing parts for the turntable, how to identify them and find them.
3. How to rewire the tonearm properly and new cables that connects to the radio.

Any thoughts and suggestions for this project is very much appreciated.

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door Achim @, Stadskanaal, 24.11.2009, 05:38 (5518 dagen geleden) @ 2blue
Bewerkt door Achim, 24.11.2009, 05:44

Hello 2blue

Its very simpel just do like everyone does visit a vintage jukebox or radiofair or look on the many sites like ebay and others and use google to find the parts you need it works fine for me i always find the parts i need.
Sometimes close to home sometimes far away... or just wait for an answer from one of the guys here they could have the parts you need old recordplayers are not that difficult to find and very cheap.

good luck :OK:

best regards

Achim

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door 2blue, 24.11.2009, 06:00 (5518 dagen geleden) @ Achim

Thanks, I never thought about radio-fairs. I don't know if there's such a thing here, but I certainly shall do some research. I might have to look further than my own country.

I contacted a UK forum, and was rather discouraged when several told me to Philips had terrible record changers during the 50's. Even so, I would like to keep the original if possible.

Best Regards from Arild

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door Ouwe Schipper @, Sassenheim, 24.11.2009, 08:10 (5518 dagen geleden) @ 2blue
Bewerkt door Ouwe Schipper, 24.11.2009, 08:15

Good morning 2blue
I only know answers for q'ns 1 & 3:
1 the cartridge will be very rare indeed and my advice to you is not to try finding the original thing. To me it is very clearly a mono cartridge which will almost certainly destroy your stereo records. I can explain this by telling that the needle in those old mono's were only able to follow lateral movements; for groove depth variations (essential in stereo records) the suspension of the needle was too rigid and the needle will start chiseling material off your record.
3 When yo only have a feeling that the arm is to be rewired but there is no serious motive to do so: please don't. The two red wires conduct the signal and the third one serves as screening and earth connection for the complete arm. Underneath the chassis one of the red wires and the earth strand are connected to the metal of the player, I suppose there will be a terminal strip of some kind. From there to the radio leads a screened cable (I like your expression "woven metal stocking" ) and if that lead is deteriorating you can solder in a new one. Red banana to the core (you only need one core), black one to the shielding, always connect shielding to the metal of the player.
But all this is to no purpose before you find the right cartridge: adapting to your player arm and stereo compatible mono....! This might be searching for a needle in a haystack.
Kind regards
Old Skipper Nico

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door John Hupse † ⌂, Schoonhoven, 24.11.2009, 10:01 (5518 dagen geleden) @ 2blue

Hello 2blue,

1. Is it possible to find a new working cartridge that fits the tonearm?

If your cartridge is a mono cartridge it is possible to rebuilt it. Sent me a email for this (click on John's Radio Web, then click on "E-mail". Pls. attach a picture of your cartridge to your email message, or mention the model number, e.g. AG3010, AG3016 etc.

If you prefer a stereo cartridge it also might be possible to help you.

2. Missing parts for the turntable, how to identify them and find them.

Philips made a number of record changers in the fifties that are basically the same. You will find documentation of the AG1000 model here.

How to rewire the tonearm properly and new cables that connects to the radio.

This is described in the Philips AG1000 service manual. The schematic diagram of the tonearm wiring is found in Fig. 2. The connection cable is an extension of the tonearm wiring.

[image]

--
http://www.hupse.eu/radio

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door Ed de Jong @, Terneuzen, 24.11.2009, 16:28 (5518 dagen geleden) @ John Hupse †

Hi 2blue,

Just for reference, I include 2 pictures of my AG1006. This is the same recordplayer that you saw on youtube.
The AG1006 is a little bit different from the AG1000 but there are a lot pictures to find for this one.
[image]
[image]

Succes with completing your system.

Best regards,

Ed

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door 2blue, 24.11.2009, 20:10 (5518 dagen geleden) @ Ed de Jong

hank you for hints and help all of you. I am rather relieved and encourage :-)

Ed; your record changer looks like it's brand new! I still think mine might be the same model. I shall post some pictures. I would have done so right now, but my internet connection is acting up and is too slow to upload pictures for the moment. Mine has a grey silver type finish.

John; My record player came with two different cartridges and neither of them works. One is a open construction where the entire cartridge flips over in the headshell to switch between 78 and 33/45 stylus. The other one is a closed construction where only the stylus flips over. I suspect it's possible (if not probable) that neither of them are the original cartridge. If you are willing to take a look at them I can send them to you in the mail. I am wondering if the open headshell model might be fitted with some kind of custom fittings and a current type of cartridge? However then I shall have to figure out some kind of preamp solution for the phono stage, and I'm not shore I like that idea.

Skipper Nico; thanks for taking time for the detailed explanation, it helps a lot You are right; I don't really know if any thing is wrong with the tonearm wiring. However the cables that connect to phono input in radio is bad. One banana plug is broken, the other one is a sort of emergency repair at one point, and the soldering and copper-wire is deteriorating, at least the outer parts that show. I shall have to do some thorough investigation with your description in mind. I am afraid the wires that connects to phono input needs replacing.

When I first got the radio, the turntable worked, at least it moved, turned around and the speed changer worked. Now it is stuck. If I can find parts and drawings I might figure out how to mend it.

Best Regards from Arild

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door Ouwe Schipper @, Sassenheim, 24.11.2009, 21:26 (5518 dagen geleden) @ 2blue

Another hint 2blue...
On the lower picture of the record changer you may see a small switch, short- circuiting the signal during the changing cyclus. This prevents funny noises being produced by the cartridge when it is moving. When in doubt about purchasing the right type of cable between player and radio I can send you some. Then I also make the ends ready for soldering onto the terminals of the player and into the banana pins.
Kind regards, and take care not to destroy your stereo records using the wrong cartridge!!
Nico

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door 2blue, 24.11.2009, 21:38 (5518 dagen geleden) @ Ouwe Schipper

Thanks for the tip Nico. I promise not to use this record player very much. I have an ordinary Thorens turntable that is not great, but hopefully doesn't ruin records. There's a Ortofon OM30 cartridge on it. I am glad you mentioned the risk with using mono cartridges. I didn't know there was a difference there. I only knew about 78'rpm records needing a special stylus. The tonearm on the Philips record changer is very heavy and crude, but I suppose that was how things were then.

Best Regards from Arild

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door 2blue, 24.11.2009, 22:15 (5518 dagen geleden) @ Ouwe Schipper

I would very much like to have your cable. I'm not quite shore about the switch, but I think I see it. I am not at home right know, but will do some thorough investigation on my own turntable when I get home.

At first I was planning to rewire the tonearm and replace all cables, thinking the old ones must have gone bad after all these years. In highfi magazines they all ways talk about rewiring old tonarms because as copper ages it will not give as good sound as it did when it was new. After 50 years what could the condition be? Silver plated copper wire is easy to find, but the original twirling grounding I don't know how to recreate. If you think this is a bad idea, I will keep the original.

I also bought plane copper cable for the loudspeaker. This looks much more straight forward. One thing is that the only replacement banana plugs I found are identical to these. I hope they will work, the old 1950's type is impossible to find. I shall have to use these for all connections, phono, loudspeaker, antenna and all, because only one of the original banana plugs are any good.

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door Ouwe Schipper @, Sassenheim, 25.11.2009, 06:38 (5517 dagen geleden) @ 2blue

Well Arild...
There is a lot of "freak speak" in the world, by which I mean that some people try to impress others by talking a lot of poppycock. "Ageing of copper, influencing the sound quality" is one of these hoaxes. Also the bl....y expensive gold plated banana pins you refer to are freak speak and in my opinion total nonsense. How many do you need, the price of the normal thing is about Eu. 0.80 .....!
For the loudspeaker, with normal living room volume and distances a simple 2x 1.5 Qmm will do; most practical is the stuff with a red and a black lead. Also available at a reasonable price. If you like I could provide any of the mentioned things, cables (what length?) and banana pins.
Good luck
Nico

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door 2blue, 25.11.2009, 08:51 (5517 dagen geleden) @ Ouwe Schipper

I see I should have come to this forum before I started restoring this old radio. I bought the gold plated banana plugs because that is the only thing audio shops carry these days. I suppose copper are better conductor than gold, but copper tend to oxidate and has a risk of turning green with time. I bought a package of the lowest priced loudspeaker cable I could find here. It is covered in clear plastic, and I really don't need much. The loudspeaker is built in the wooden cabinet and I will probably use about 75 cm.

For the tonearm wiring and phono input cables I have not found anything simmilar to the original either in shops here or ebay. You guys are probalby the first ones I have talked to who understand what I am trying to replace LOL. I will happily order these cables from you. Gold plated banana plugs looks rather foreign on this radio. The original ones were probably a sort of dark maroon colour, not black and red, but it's really not a big deal to me. I will hardly ever see the plugs and wiring anyway.

I know this old thing is far from modern hifi, but silver plated tonearm wiring are actually standard, most available and cheapest in 2009. If I have to use clips to fasten them, anything that isn't goldplated is hard to find, however I think every thing is soldered on in my radio / record player. This is the nearest I have come to the original red wiring of the tonarm, but this might work too.

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door Ouwe Schipper @, Sassenheim, 25.11.2009, 11:29 (5517 dagen geleden) @ 2blue
Bewerkt door Ouwe Schipper, 25.11.2009, 12:02

Let's continue this discussion in private mail; check your postbox
N.

Repairing an old Philips record changer, long post

door John Hupse † ⌂, Schoonhoven, 26.11.2009, 11:02 (5516 dagen geleden) @ 2blue

Hi 2blue,

My record player came with two different cartridges and neither of them works. One is a open construction where the entire cartridge flips over in the headshell to switch between 78 and 33/45 stylus.

This open cartridge might be a Philips AG3301 or AG3304 stereo cartridge. It is not an original cartridge for the AG1006, but of course it can be used with a modification in the wiring.

[image]

The other one is a closed construction where only the stylus flips over.

This one might be a Philips GP230 stereo cartridge, or a GP235 mono cartridge.
Both are able to play stereo records without problems, as their vertical compliancy is sufficient for stereo grooves.

For the GP230 a wiring modification of your AG1006 is necessary, the GP235 will play without modification.

[image]

If you are willing to take a look at them I can send them to you in the mail.

No problem.

--
http://www.hupse.eu/radio

RSS Feed van deze thread
powered by my little forum